Liam Conner
The following is a transcript of an interview with Secretary of State Antony Blinken that aired on May 12, 2024.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Good morning and welcome to Face the Nation. We are learning more about the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza, as thousands of people flee what was once a safe zone, the southern city of Rafah. The challenges facing the Biden administration, from a diplomatic perspective, also continue to grow. Although the US supports Israel’s right to retaliate against Hamas for the brutal October 7 attack that killed more than 1,200 people. There are deep concerns about the Palestinian death toll, as even Prime Minister Netanyahu has admitted that his forces have in fact killed more civilians than members of Hamas. We start this morning with Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who joins us from the State Department. Good morning, Mr. Secretary. I know that military experts say that Gaza is as complicated and challenging a battlefield as any modern war has seen. But in December, President Biden said Israel had conducted indiscriminate bombings. In February, he said Israel’s offensive was exaggerated. And then last week he was asked on CNN about stopping the delivery of 3,500 bombs. Here’s what he said.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a result of these bombs and other ways they attack population centers. I have made it clear that if they go to Rafah…I will not provide the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah – to deal with the cities to deal with this problem.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, is Israel meeting the standards of international humanitarian law?
SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN: Well, first Margaret, good morning, and as you know, we published a full report on this. But let me say this from the beginning. From day one, President Biden has been determined to support Israel in defending itself and trying to ensure that October 7th never happens again. At the same time, he made it very clear that in doing so, it is imperative that Israel protect civilians and ensure that humanitarian assistance reaches those who need it. And that’s what we’ve been doing since day one. The report we released sets out some of the concerns we had throughout this period with regard to humanitarian assistance, especially in the first months after 7 October. incidents in which, given the totality of the harm caused to children, women and men, it was reasonable to assess that, in certain cases, Israel acted in ways that are not consistent with international humanitarian law. It is also essential to note that Israel itself has accountability processes to get to this point. There are hundreds of ongoing inquiries into different incidents that have occurred since October 7th. There are criminal investigations that are moving forward, unlike most other countries in the world, Israel has the capacity, the means and the actions to correct itself. But we were at it every day.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you were able to conclude that Israel violated U.S. laws and arms-sharing agreements?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: No. We conclude that in the case of the use of weapons, as you said, this is an extraordinarily complex military environment in which you have an enemy, Hamas, which committed the most atrocious terrorist attacks against Israel, October 7th, and then he retreats to Gaza, hiding behind and under civilians, in hospitals, schools, mosques, apartment buildings. And that makes it very difficult to determine, especially in the midst of war, exactly what happened and to draw any final conclusions from any incident. Therefore, we have a series of incidents that we continue to analyze, to try to obtain the best possible assessment. The Israelites themselves are doing the same thing. Our assessments will be continuous. But, as I said, given the totality of what we have seen in terms of civilian suffering, in terms of children, women, men caught in this crossfire that Hamas is doing, who have been killed or injured. It is reasonable to evaluate this in several cases. Israel has not acted in a manner consistent with international humanitarian law.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand you’re still collecting evidence, but on the policy, can you clarify? Because even the top Democrat on the House Armed Services says it’s not clear. Is the US slowing down on delivering any weapons to Israel at this time, beyond the 3,500 so-called silent bombs?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: So let me be clear about this as well. First, just to take a step back, no president – no president has done more to defend Israel when it really mattered than Joe Biden. He was in Israel in the days following October 7th, the first American president to go to Israel in the middle of a war. When Iran mounted an unprecedented attack against Israel, launching 300 projectiles, including ballistic missiles, the United States participated for the first time in the active defense of Israel. And we brought together a coalition of countries to defend ourselves against the Iranian attack. But we have also been very clear for several months about our concerns regarding a major military operation in Rafah. As you know, Margaret, most of the population of Gaza, displaced from northern and central Gaza, went to Rafah, there are about 1.4 million people there. And we have told Israel that we cannot and will not support an operation in Rafah, a major military operation, in the absence of a credible plan to protect civilians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: — and they still haven’t delivered.
SECRETARY BLINKEN:– We have not seen that plan. We didn’t see that plan–
MARGARET BRENNAN: — So- So are you tracking the delivery of any weapons other than these 3,500 bombs? Are you stopping, for example, precision munitions, as some Republicans claim?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: The answer to that is no. What the President said, and what he was clear about, in private conversations with the Israelis, which unfortunately were leaked to the press, so the President responded openly when he was asked about it. But what we have been clear about is that if Israel launches this major military operation in Rafah, then there will be certain systems that we will not support and provide for that operation. But right now, the only thing that we have delayed and are containing are these large payload bombs, because we are in an ongoing conversation with Israel, given the impact that these weapons can have when they are used in densely populated areas. areas, including an area like Rafah–
MARGARET BRENNAN: — So you can still deliver them?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: So we are in active conversation with Israel about this. We have real concerns about how they are used. But here’s another thing that’s extremely important, Margaret. We believe in two things. First, there needs to be a clear and credible plan to protect civilians, which we have not yet seen. Secondly, we also need to see a plan for what will happen after this conflict in Gaza is open and over. And we haven’t seen that yet because what are we seeing now? We are seeing parts of Gaza that Israel liberated from Hamas, where Hamas is returning, including in the North, including in Khan Younis. When we look at Rafah, they may come in and have some initial success, but potentially at an incredibly high cost to civilians, but that is not durable, that is not sustainable. And they will be blamed for a lasting insurgency, because there will be a lot of armed Hamas left, regardless of what they do in Rafah. Or if they pull out and leave Gaza as we believe they need to do, then we will have a vacuum and a void that will likely be filled by chaos, anarchy and, ultimately, Hamas again. So we have been working for many, many weeks on developing credible plans for security, for governance, for reconstruction. We didn’t see this coming from Israel, we have been working with Arab countries and others on this plan. We need to see this too. We have the same goal as Israel. We want to make sure that Hamas cannot rule Gaza again. We want to make sure it is demilitarized. We want to make sure that Israel has its leaders. That’s what we’re determining. We have a different way. And we thought of a more effective and durable way to do this. We continue to talk to Israel about exactly this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, your national security memorandum that you signed says that Israeli efforts to mitigate harm to civilians are, quote, ‘inconsistent, effective and inadequate.’ The prime minister himself said that Israel estimates that the IDF killed 14,000 terrorists and 16,000 civilians. Does the US share the Israeli assessment that more civilians than real terrorists were killed?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: Yes, we do and I think the report makes clear that although Israel has processes, procedures, rules, regulations to try to minimize civilian harm, given the impact that this operation, this war in Gaza has had on the civilian population–
MARGARET BRENNAN: And yet, you’re still supplying weapons to Israel.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: – that this was not – it was not applied consistently and effectively. There’s a gap between the stated intent and some of the results that we’ve seen, but because it’s so complicated, in the middle of a war, and particularly in the middle of a war where there’s an enemy that hides in the civilian infrastructure, hides behind the civilians, to make final decisions on these individual incidents. We are looking at the totality of what happened. We think it is reasonable to assess, based on what happened, that there were acts that were inconsistent with Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law, but we do not draw definitive conclusions. We need to continue these investigations, just as Israel is doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, I have many more questions about this, but I also have to ask you about Ukraine because Russia is making this push, as you know, in Kharkiv and the White House says that Russia is expected to increase troops levels. This is the reality? Is this the cost of the delay in US weapons deliveries to these front lines?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: Look, there’s no doubt that there was a cost in the months-long delay in approving the supplemental budget request and shipping the equipment to Ukraine. Just this week, we raised about $400 million worth of defense equipment for Ukraine from the supplement. So we are doing everything we can to accelerate this assistance. Europeans are doing the same. Look, I’m convinced that Ukraine can effectively hold the line in the east, can continue to take advantage of the advantages achieved for itself in the Black Sea, where it is exiting both through the Black Sea, feeding the world as the Russian reinvasion of Ukraine did before. , as well as keeping Russian forces at risk, including in Crimea, to make it difficult for them to continue this aggression. We have provided the systems to do this, but it is a challenging time. We are not going anywhere, not more than about 50 countries that support Ukraine. This will continue and if Putin thinks he can survive Ukraine, survive his supporters. He’s wrong.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, thank you for your time this morning.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
