Transcript: Matt Pottinger, former deputy National Security Adviser, on “Face the Nation,” June 2, 2024

The following is a transcript of an interview with Matt Pottinger, who served as Deputy National Security Advisor in the Trump administration, on “Face the Nation,” which aired June 2, 2024.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And now we’re joined by Matt Pottinger, who served as Deputy National Security Advisor in the Trump administration. He is the author of the new book, “The Boiling Moat: Urgent Steps to Defend Taiwan,” available in July. Matt, you say time is running out. Beijing has been involved in the most comprehensive peacetime military buildup of any nation since World War II. Are you anticipating that conflict will happen with President Biden or President Trump, if he is reelected, under their watch?

FORMER UNITED STATES NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR MATTHEW POTTINGER: Well, what is clear is that the dictator in Beijing, Xi Jinping, intends to try to take over Taiwan, annex it by force if necessary. We also know that this would be catastrophic for American prosperity and security. But my co-authors and I are quite optimistic that this is a war that can be deterred. But this means we have to take some measures urgently. These are viable steps. It does not require massive new investments. We have the technologies we need. But Taiwan, Japan and the United States in particular, need to take the measures that we think we set out in the book.

MARGARET BRENNAN: This week, the Secretary of Defense is in Asia and met with his Chinese Defense Minister counterpart. You can see it there. This is the first reunion since 2022. The last guy disappeared. But Austin said “a fight with China is not imminent…nor inevitable.” When we hear the kind of rhetoric coming out of Washington right now, it sounds like we’re headed toward conflict. What are the things you are saying that need to be done to prevent it?

POTTINGER: Yes, well, for starters, we need to invest more in ammunition manufacturing. Okay, so one of the things that the Chinese government is looking at is, would we be able to stay in a fight for more than just the first, you know, the initial battle that would be involved in taking Taiwan? If they don’t think we have the industrial base and, at this point, we haven’t optimized our industrial base to do that…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Even with the supplemental national security investment in the can?

POTTINGER: Absolutely. Look, we, we, surprisingly, I don’t think many Americans realize, our defense spending right now is less than half of what it was in the 1980s, during the Cold War. And this was during the Reagan administration. We didn’t have to go to war, partly because we invested money in it. Our armed forces in terms of personnel are smaller today than they were on the eve of the Second World War. So we have to invest more money in this, but we also have to do things to optimize our defense spending so that there are no guaranteed profits, no matter how inefficient the manufacturers are. There are things we can do to boost our military production and take advantage of our innovative base.

MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s interesting to hear you, and before you, the general, talk about the scale of the problem facing the president of the United States and the next commander in chief. That’s why I think it’s important to have this conversation this week. You resigned from the Trump administration after the violent attack on the Capitol on January 6, and then testified to Congress that you feared America’s national security was in danger that day, which gave “ammunition to fuel a narrative that our system of government does not works”, the US is in decline. “If you continue to contest an election, you are not just contesting an election”, “in fact, you are defying the Constitution itself”. Do you fear that erosion is occurring right now with what we heard during the campaign?

POTTINGER: Well, look, I- I think the perception of erosion is- I really think the United States is incredibly strong. We have all these advantages, this century could be ours if we don’t lose courage. I- I think, look, election day is going to be a referendum. It’s the best kind of referendum. It’s where the American people decide who will be the next president. I hope the result is decisive so that neither side ends up contesting the results. But if they do, as happened in the last election, the… the courts will… determine that. We have a system in place that allows us to judge the results of our election.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But now you still have, like, the ranking member of the Senate Intelligence Committee speaking out and repeating things that undermine our judicial system, comparing the United States to the Soviet Union?

POTTINGER: Yes, well, look, there- there- there’s no way–

MARGARET BRENNAN: What does Beijing think of this?

POTTINGER: Yeah, look, look, well, Beijing, it’s an interesting time, because Beijing really appreciates propaganda that is designed to discredit the United States, or to make us doubt our, our system of government. But at the same time, you have a jury that just convicted a president of the United States, you also have the son of a sitting president who is now under indictment, just as you heard Preet Bharara earlier. Beijing’s propaganda can only go so far. At the end of the day, Americans, thank God we live in a system where the American people will decide who their president is. They have all the information available.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re going to try to bring that to them here. Thank you very much, Matt. We’re back.